Conversation between Pascale Déry and Camila Vásquez –
June, 2023
Pascale: [00:00:00] Here we go.
Camila: [00:00:04] Voilà! First of all, thank you for playing along. It’s really the idea of opening up a space to get your perspective, to get your point of view of what this collaboration with Bill Burns is like for you, what it brings you, how you see your role, the process you’ve started together. Yeah, I just want to hear from you. Then maybe some questions will come up as we go along.
Pascale: [00:00:40]. Well, that’s fun. Because basically, in my normal practice as a costume designer, I work mostly with theater teams, dance productions, videos. So a lot of my creative work is based on a script or a director’s or choreographer’s point of view. At that point, it’s clear that there’s a process where several collaborators work on the same project, but there’s still a leader, in quotation marks, someone who sees the vision and brings people into that vision. It’s a bit the same thing, because Bill had his project from the start. His approach was well prepared, well initiated, and the collaboration he asked me for at the outset was really going to be a technical contribution. Support so that he could implement the ideas that were in his head, but that he wasn’t well equipped to realize. Then, basically, with his first visit, I could see that he was open to my artistic input. Then, when he came to spend a week, it became clear that this is a role I really like… trying to dive into someone’s universe, to get inside someone’s head.
Pascale: [00:02:47] Earlier, I was talking about working with directors and choreographers. But I’m also an assistant costume designer. So, when the costume designer takes a step, well, my role as support is to come and understand what the person wants to achieve and then give them all my baggage. This includes knowledge of sewing, leather and movement. The person wearing the costume has to be able to move. It has to be able to propel the actor’s, dancer’s or performer’s interpretation. My stage experience meant that with Bill, we could more quickly translate his requests into something concrete, but something that would last, be comfortable, but also be solid. It’s not something that breaks within two choreographies or anything like that. So, there’s a technical support that’s really there, but I also realized that he left a lot of freedom in the creation and that, basically, he wanted the costumes to be very much the fruit of my imagination and my artistic sense, my artistic presence.
Pascale: [00:05:01] Then the week he was there, it was super fun, super intense. Basically, he had talked to me about certain things, he had done some sketches that you may have seen on the blog, but, it remains intangible. When someone does a sketch for you, it can take 1000 colors, it can take 1000 textures, it’s very, very broad. But when he came up with prototypes and objects he’d already started building from recycled materials, well, it became a concrete proposition. He lined me up with different materials he wanted to see repeated. So leather, nylon straps and nylon belts. A lot of hardware, accessories, sewing, clips for the overalls, things to adjust the snaps, snaps, all the hardware related to adjusting the straps and ways of hooking and attaching. As these are costumes that are going to be put on in front of the camera, I think Bill’s main purpose is to see a human, a person get into the skin of a bee or get into the skin of a donkey or a goat. In a way, for the video he wants to make, I think the way of putting on, of associating, not associating, but combining certain costume elements, of attaching together, I’m looking for the word, not fusing…
Camila: [00:06:56] Assemble?
Pascale: [00:06:58] Assembling different pieces of costume. It’s going to be seen and the sound of the zipper is going to be important, the sound of the clips. It all becomes an element in itself. We worked a lot with the choice of all that hardware. Then it really came down to concrete elements. But after that, we had to make them portable. So, if the goat’s snout was inspired by a tetra pack of almond milk or something like that, of soya milk, well, he gave me that box and said: “Well, that’s the snout I want. I’d like it to have a link with the skin of the person who’s going to wear it.” So, do we make it in leather? My mission was to try and find the goat’s line through a recycled object. An industrial object, which in itself has no resonance with a goat as such. But I tried to give it a twist so that we could find a connotation where we could recognize the goat. Bill also looked at the use of linen and linen fiber. So we worked on the goatee with linen. We used the wool he went looking for… I don’t know which.
Camila: [00:09:08] It was wool that he had. I think.
Pascale: [00:09:11] Well, in any case, he said to me: “It’s important that it’s part of the process because it’s an exchange, you know. It’s someone who traded it to me, and for me, it has to show up there.”
Camila: [00:09:22] Right. It was part of the barter.
Pascale: [00:09:24] Right. When he came up with a totally plastic, transformed bee structure, well, I suggested something more natural, lighter, for the wings. But we still combined it with plastic to give it rigidity, and then with pins salvaged from Chinese lanterns. These were pieces I already had in the workshop. So there were almost no purchases made specifically for the confection.
Pascale: [00:11:16] I would say that the harness part, the second part, is more complex because we realize that a goat harness on a human, well it’s not quite the same comfort. It’s not adapted for a human, so we’re working on that. It’s all about proportions. What’s the difference between the construction harness, the human harness, versus the goat harness, which is much more delicate, but will be worn by the same body? The proportion is not the same. Even more so with the donkey. You know, we bought a foal harness so it would be smaller, easier to fit on a human face. But in the end, we realized that we might have to go for a dog harness to make it more flexible. But then again, you know, Bill’s coming on Monday, so there’s certainly some thinking to be done about that. Because I still think it’s possible to use the foal’s harness and work on it to make it more supple and comfortable. I’d say that because of the language barrier, because I’m bilingual, but not perfectly bilingual, I found it very difficult to fully immerse myself in the design aspect. The whole thought process. Was it because we didn’t have much time?We took less time to really immerse ourselves in his creative process. Or is it precisely the language barrier that prevented me from fully grasping all the keys to his approach? As for the harnesses, I still don’t understand exactly how visitors will be able to immerse themselves in the animal space. I still haven’t fully understood his approach.
Camila: [00:12:53] I feel like there’s something he’s discovering with you by doing it. Because it’s the first time he’s worked on the costume. And also, this harness idea came along the way. So I think it’s really the experience and the material that will also feed the reflection.
Pascale: [00:13:20] It could be. And you know, there’s something very intuitive about it. I love it because when you work with a choreographer or a director? There are requirements. Sometimes you have to. You have to get it right on stage. Yes, the actor has to be able to do that with it. But for the moment, I feel there’s something very intuitive about Bill. And he trusts me in it. And so do I. You know, at one point we went to Estrie Aide to do some scouting. We were looking for leather and I came across a baseball glove whose leather color reminded me of goat. There was something soft and supple about the texture of the baseball glove. Then there was a detail in the stitching that I thought was neat. He was like, “Well, take it if it inspires you. All along, we’d put it aside a bit, thinking it wasn’t necessarily appropriate. Then, at a certain point, I said, “Well, this is what I see as bringing out the roundness of the skull.” You know, the goat has a small snout, but still a good skull to hang its ears on. I went back to that baseball glove, looking for the detail I liked, then I transformed it, then it did something zany there, something not at all realistic, obviously. But he let me get on with it.
Pascale: [00:15:10] I think that when he sees my pleasure in harmonizing textures and colors, well, he’s happy. And I’m happy. So it’s really a very, very pleasant job, this mutual trust. Another thing, for the donkey’s snout, he used a bag of coffee, coffee beans, because he liked the shape, then the evocation of the nostrils and mouth, all that. Right from the start, there was something about it that caught my attention. Then, at one point, I said to him, “I think it’s because the muzzle is too dark compared to the rest. The bag was black, and then, for me, there’s light ahead. The evocation of a donkey’s snout, the nostrils are pale. I don’t think you can get away with all breeds of donkey. It’s still something different from a horse. I said, “Can we find another bag?” “No, but these are the bags I use every day; they’re important to me. And I love this bag. I said, “Can we get a little patina on it just to see? You know, we’re going to have both options when it arrives on Monday. My nose isn’t quite set on the rest yet, but it’s had this opening to try something and we’ll see how it goes. It’s the same bag, but it’s going to have a little patina with spray paint. Just a little on the front of the bag.
Pascale: [00:17:17] So we’ll recognize the logo again because I think the name of the café, the trademark is important and there’s a link. There’s a wink. Then you have to recognize certain things. You know, he left the labels… We’ll give it a try. If it doesn’t work, it doesn’t work, it’s okay.
Camila: [00:17:45] Yes.
Pascale: [00:17:45] There are things where I give up too, I leave myself to his creation and there has to be his satisfaction in all that, in what he brings as a lead.
Camila: [00:18:01] There seems to be a lot of play involved in the process.
Pascale: [00:18:11] Yes, you know, the first few times he came in with his blanket and he’d say, “Well, I can see that the blanket is a donkey. I recognize the dark gray line on the back.” And we talked about the shape of the tail, which could be taken as a negative, like a hole in the blanket. But while I was doing it, I hesitated to cut it off. I said to myself, “Well, I’ll leave it here, and then at worst we’ll have a bite when he arrives.” And then there’s a kind of playfulness in wearing it. I think that even the person who’s going to perform will be able to make it their own. What do they want to do with it? I went looking for certain lines that for me were important in terms of evocation, without giving too many details, but just lines. The crest without there being a mane as such, but just a line that defines the rest of the skull. And that it’s not just a blanket. Let it settle and still center the spine.
Pascale: [00:19:48] It’s a more laborious process at a distance. Yes, it’s a challenge. It’s the first time I’ve done it. It goes really well because when we meet, it’s hyper dynamic. Then we take 1 hour, we go round and it’s fine, but clearly, the week he was there, it was very effervescent as a creation. He’d throw something at me. I’d respond immediately, physically and technically, with a production that would take him down another path. And all that. So clearly, working in the same studio is a lot more lively. At the same time, at a distance, it gives us a certain amount of space to go our separate ways with our ideas, and I’m sure that it progresses in a different way than if we were together all the time. And I can’t wait for him to come back next week, because then we’ll also get to interact with the person who’s going to perform. So it’s one thing to have a costume, but to have an inhabited costume, that’s something else. You know, the person could have arrived earlier in the process to be fitted, and that could have propelled the creation, I think. But in the current context, it was what we could do. But I can’t wait to see the result. Do you know if he does the videos?
Camila: [00:21:24] No, there’s someone who’s going to film, a cameraman, and that’s the same person who’s going to edit as well. It’s a videographer’s contract. There will be Camille, the performer, Drew, the videographer and Bill. Are you going to be there?
Pascale: [00:21:52] Yes, I’d like that.
Camila: [00:21:54] I won’t be there that day. Noémie will welcome you. It’s at Molson, on the second floor. There’s a part that will be done in the photo studio and another part, the harness part, which will be in the corridor because we can’t drill through the studio walls.
Pascale: [00:22:16] Okay.
Camila: [00:22:17] We’ll be able to install the hooks in the Molson corridor and there’s great natural light, so it’ll give a nice result. Yeah.
Pascale: [00:22:28] It’s intriguing what the result will be. Because I still don’t have an overall idea of the whole process. I focused on one part. He gave me information on the costumes and after that, well, we’ll be able to savor it all in September.
Camila: [00:22:52] Yes, really. But I think it’s a bit like that for everyone. I’d even say for him, probably.
Pascale: [00:22:58] Yes, that’s right.